My friend Pete punches and kicks his daughter. If you were to see the feet and fists flying and Molly down on the floor, you might be tempted to call Protective Services. Only Molly punches and kicks Pete back. Nobody gets hurt; it’s sort of like the rough-housing that wolf or bear cubs regularly engage in – a kind of practicing in preparation for going out and facing aggression in the real world. In Molly’s own words, “When we’re both down on the floor, it’s because we’re laughing too hard to stand up. It’s something we both enjoy as a bonding experience and as a way to get pent up aggression out, stuff that, if we tried to talk out, would take hours and we’d never get anywhere. It’s therapeutic. A truce can always be called and we always end with a hug.”
Leaving out the limbic system
I bring this example up for several reasons. One is that where abuse and trauma are concerned, contexts and outcomes are important variables to factor into any assessment; along with what happens afterward. The punching and kicking that go on between Pete and Molly is not fueled by a high-jacked limbic system; neither one of them is so angry as to be out of control. Instead, their interactions provide a unique kind of energy expression and personal connection. This is not something so easy to obtain in healthy ways between a father and a teenaged daughter.
Hellfire and Damnation
So, that’s one example where things aren’t necessarily as they seem. For another, consider my friend Jane and her daughter, Maria. Every Sunday they attend church services together. They are faithful members of their church community and their pastor is a powerful preacher of the hellfire and damnation school. If you watch Jane and Maria and the other people who leave church at the end of services, you’ll notice that there’s not much smiling and socializing going on. For good reason.
Good God/Bad God
Gail Ironson, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Miami has recently published a remarkable study. She spoke about it at the Spiritual Transformation Public Symposium held at the University of California in Berkeley. Ironson’s research was on spiritual transformation and HIV patients. Her key finding is that HIV patients who believe God loves them have much slower disease progression, and live significantly longer than those who do not hold this belief. In other words, if you believe in a punitive God, you will suffer for it. The nature of the God we believe in appears to affect our neurobiology as well as the strength of our immune system. If true, the magnitude of the suffering such environments create is highlighted by Baylor University’s Institute for Studies in Religion: they found that 31% of Americans believe in an authoritarian, judgmental God; and it’s as high as 44% for people in the southern states. Only 23% of the people in America believe in a benevolent God. There’s a lot of punishment apparently being meted out in America in the name of God.
You Be the Judge
Now here’s a question: suppose we accept that Dr. Ironson’s study is true (and I could offer detailed, empirical epigenetic support for it; also, Ken Heilman and Russell Donda present their unique perspective in an article entitled Neuroscience and Fundamentalism). Next, suppose we explain to Jane the damage that apparently happens in Maria’s brain and body by attending such church events. If Jane insists on taking Maria to these “brain-damaging” sermons, should she be reported to Protective Services for “simply” attending church services? Again, contexts and outcomes are important variables.
Change your God, change your health.
This is not an easy question to answer, but I want to make several points here. One is that when we consider which actions are kind and loving and which are harmful and dangerous where children are concerned, we can’t necessarily apply adult reasoning. We need to not only consider contexts and outcomes, but more importantly, as Peter Levine and Maggie Kline ask in their book, Trauma Through a Child’s Eyes, what is the actual experience and effect on the child? Most parents want the best for their children and if we discover we’re doing something harmful, in the best of all compassionate worlds, we would choose not to do it. But oftentimes we don’t have such choice. We each come to the role of parenting with personal histories and limitations – the kind of God we were raised to believe in, being one of them. So, what to do? All reasonable suggestions will be welcomed and posted.
I have a real problem accepting the idea that a father and daughter punching and kicking each other can be a bonding experience and a way to get rid of pent up aggression. What lesson is the daughter learning from this? Will the daughter think that this is an acceptable way to act with other people now or when she is an adult.
I don’t attend church now and didn’t as a child. My “earthly” father was a very gentle and loving man. Because I felt loved and accepted for just being me, I wanted to please him and live up to all of his expectations. His love for me carried me through many difficult times as a child.
A long time friend went to an authoritarian church as a child. I actually saw her cry because of her fear of not living up to the expectations of her God and her church. She doesn’t have inner peace and is not a very happy person.
Before reading your article, I didn’t consider what she had experienced as abuse. Love accomplishes so much more than what a strong authoritarian figure can.
Hi everyone,
I want to say thank you to everyone who commented on this post. It was enlightening to hear your reactions to the interactions I have with my father. When Mark sent me the paragraph to get the OK, I was most curious about the responses it would glean from other people. I want to say I fully respect all of your comments, and can say I understand completely where you are coming from. The dynamic we have is a very unique one, and walks a thin line between being preceived as therapeutic and violent.
Mark had a lot of gumption and took a chance when he published this post. No matter how it was phrased, there is always going to be a knee jerk reaction to what we’re doing is wrong. I would like to add however, that never once have I ever felt unsafe around him, nor felt threatened to the point where he wouldn’t stop if I asked.
Our playful banter started one night several years ago at a horse show when I had done poorly that day. We were going out to dinner with the rest of the barn and I was in a sour mood. Admittedly, I am ZERO fun to be around when I have a bad attitude, so at that point, I’m sure my father would have done anything he could to change it up (and he had–everything from hugs to buying me lunch to untacking my horse and getting me a massage for my aching calves. But by hour 6, he, as well as everyone else was fed up). So on the way into the restaurant, he stuck his foot out and tripped me. I fell, and for a split second I was angry with him. But then I turned around, tripped him back and we both laughed about it. Indeed, it was the only thing that was able to turn my mood around.
I believe when we engage in this playful banter, it is because we both realize that it will result in a much more enjoyable mood for both of us. Sometimes I too wonder if at some point in the future I will equate violence with love. But for now, I am able to separate the two and know that my father loves me even when he is not beating me up.
Thank you all so much for your your thoughts, respecting Mark’s post and adding your own.
Respectfully,
Molly
Anyone can change their view of God (I did – and what one person can do, all can do) – but will they? Do they see a need?
I think if those of us who do see a need just keep reaching for it for ourselves, much of the rest of the world, or our country will come into alignment.
But not everyone. It will never be everyone. And that is OK.
It doesn’t seem like it’s OK to those of us who suffered SO MUCH as children and who have that suffering activated again by the arrival of our own children, but it is OK. God does love us. At any point it can all turn around. And if it never turns around, that’s OK too, because when we die, it will instantly turn around and we will be completely free.
Thank you Mark, this blog provides much wonderful stimulation of thought.
Hey Mark,
I continue to appreciate the rigor you bring to your work and the way that you set the bar high with respect to your audience (us) – you give us a lot of intellectual credit and I like that.
With respect to your question in the last sentence – I think the best a parent can do is work every day towards becoming aware of our personal histories and limitations. It’s the ones that we act on unconsciously that cause the biggest problems – once we clearly see a limitation – our relationship to it changes – the limitation is not likely to disappear immediately – but it doesn’t have the dangerous power that those limitations (or worse) that we are not aware of often have.
This article brought tears to my eyes; partly because I am touched that there is awareness and exploration on how children experience the God they are presented with by church and parents, and partly because of my experience regarding God growing up.
As a young child I would lay on my bed, crying hard, wondering why God hated me. I assumed that was the case since I got the parents I did.
I was raised in the hell and brimstone Lutheran church of old. It terrified me. It seemed that there wasn’t even a prayer that I would go to heaven. One Sunday, when I was 12 years old, my mother, as usual, made me go to church with her. Midway through the hell and brimstone sermon, I started crying uncontrollably. My horrified mother rushed me out of the church, and, thankfully, never made me go to church again (there’s always
a silver lining!).
Then, when, when I had what was then called a nervous breakdown at the age of 16, my parents were told that I couldn’t live at home because the same thing would happen. (About 15-20 years ago I went to University hospital and asked for the case notes on my one month stay in the psyche ward, which said that both of my parents were incredibly self absorbed and were not able to parent me).
So, I was sent to a Seventh Day Adventist boarding school, which was based on extremely black and white thinking. Once, in a bible class, the teacher started yelling at me that my parents and I were sinners because my father owned a feed mill (Seventh Day Adventists are vegetarian). Once again I believed that I had no chance of being accepted into heaven.
It has taken many, many years of reading and therapy for me to believe that there is a loving God. It is still something that comes up in times of stress, as it was so ingrained at an impressionable age. I have found Somatic Experiencing to be a powerful conduit for change, and I’m certain that can help me with this as well.
Sonja
Hey there.
Thanks for adding your voice to the mix.
It’s funny, I didn’t think about stereotyping at all when I changed the names. I chose them to reflect the Baylor study showing 44% of the people in the Southern states believe in a punitive God.
But you’re right, I could have chosen Jane and Maria…and I think I will! I’ll do yet another edit, this time changing those names. Thus the power of being the Blog writer.
Mark
Georgia and Dahlia?
Why not Jane and Maria?
Southern names associated with Hellfire and Damnation religious practices…Hmmmm….You’re slipping, Mark.
Carol Ann
I am all for getting ya-yahs out.
I tend to imagine most of us are “functional- autistics”… and given the opportunity… we would gladly welcome and revel in a good squishing: just a regular laying on of another’s body weight would heal countless ails! (nonsexual – fully clothed).
And I think calculated supported struggles in compassionate wrestling is a much higher form of interaction that is more likely to be a healing play ground.
I do believe all humans need intense contact on some level, and when it comes down to only getting it via a kicking hitting fight… even if it “always ends in hugs” is likely to be wraught with deeply hidden misinterpretations… on a core level… that may not surface for another 25 years. Why create them?
Even sarcasm and teasing… though possibly accepted by many… is considered abuse by those attentive to how they are affecting others.
Sad truth men often fail to get: girls will take (on into adulthood) what ever their dad’s dish out in order to get some time – any time and attention from their dad.
The story of how great it is? Hmmmm is that a story made up by two parties… to keep suffering at bay?
Same goes when sex is the knee-jerk tendency… when all someone really needed was some intense contact. When sex becomes that path… it is time to look again at what was needed an wanted.
If those two options are as good as we could come up with…
then we missed a few really good options, that have kindness and care nicely built in to them in a way that there is an unrelenting somatic message constantly communicated back and forth that validates and supports the grand existence of each other… for example a few:
Contact improvisational dance; this form of dancing with another is playful and not premeditated.
Re-evaluation Co-counseling has lovely formats for pushing against a very attentive listener while one expells pent up frustration.
Skawisha Yah Padna Yoga, combines yoga stretches, gentle wrestling, contact yoga, and massage… to move energy with another person… a form where practitioner and receiver naturally shifts many times with in a session, so both people are fulfilled and negative energy is released.
Anyway… that is my two cents.
Tajime
I tend to agree with the above posts that the rough-housing is a bit over-the-top and could be replaced with some witty banter. I think that if my parents had played that way with me (kicking and punching), it would have given me the idea that this type of behavior is okay, and might even equate it with love. I don’t see anything healthy about equating violence, even “playful violence” (which I don’t think exists), with love. As a trauma survivor, I know that my experiences with “playful violence” turned quickly into not-so-playful violence, and have left me scarred. Of course, it may be different if it had been my parents, but I really don’t think so. Then again, I grew up in a household where timeouts were used and priveleges were taken away…never came into real negative physical contact with any parent, which taught me that physical aggression is not love.
As far as the loving, benevolent God v. hellfire and damnation, I don’t know if I would call CPS on this woman (although at times I do think I go to extremes of what I consider to be child abuse), but I think that if this makes her uncomfortable and shapes her future views in a negative way, that the parent is doing the child a great disservice, in exactly the same way a parent would be doing the child a disservice if he/she was teaching them, as above, that violence is okay.
Please forgive if this post makes little sense. Mental health is poor and I’m running on no sleep. Enjoyed your article very much. You always get some thoughts stirred up in my head. 🙂
Best,
Rose
Thanks so much for sharing this information. I tend to agree with Dorit about the roughhousing, that I’m not so sure that it is really the healthiest way for an adult to interact with their child. But then again, I grew up with chronic physical abuse so in my case, any kind of interaction on that level is going to cause me to feel very uncomfortable, so I may not be a good judge.
I wanted to comment about the affect hell and damnation teaching have on children. A close family member and her husband are of a religous order that is moderatly fundamentalist and they have three children. For halloween one year they gave us little baggies filled with goodies and a pamplet. The pamplet talked about how God is loving, but everyone is a sinner and it showed children crying and hiding in shame because of thier sinful nature, and then it showed that God would only forgive you if you accept jesus. And then it showed children happy holding hands with Jesus and a rainbow etc… these were what they were giving out to the children that would come to their door!! I was so sickened by this, but I didn’t feel within my rights to say something to this family member. I mean what can one say?
I do agree that this whole idea is so damaging to children. Mentally it gives mixed messages that God (God being defined within a religious context) is all loving – yet you are inherently “bad” and need to be forgiven for BEING so horribly bad in God’s sight. I would say, that this could constitute as mental and emotional abuse.
Case in point: this family member’s children are starting to show signs of a problem. their oldest, now 16 is currently on anti-depressants and being treated for an “anger problem.” He is not allowed to express any emotions or feelings or show any difference in opinion from what they consider to be acceptable within the context of their religious beliefs. I think they have gone to an extreme and the child, unable to truly be himself is turning his anger inward on himself. This kid has a long way to go to reprogram himself and know that he is a beautiful, creative lovable person, just as he is. And my heart breaks every time I see him, because he really is a beautiful kid and his parents don’t see him through the lens of love, compassion and understanding. Truly Heartbreaking….
Mark,
I resonate with much of what you propose in your complex blog, but not so sure about Pete and Molly’s practice as being truly therapeutic (healing) or as a valuable preparation for “going out and facing aggression in the real world”.
Many couples habitually engage in yelling matches, which end with hugs and sex. Different, I realize, from Pete’s and Molly’s laughter filled house-ruffing, but similar if the ground is a disagreement “stuff that, if we tried to talk out, would take hours and we’d never get anywhere”.
Is that the message Pete wants to communicate to Molly? That you face aggression in the world with returning a punch with a punch? and that it is not worth developing non-aggressive communication skills that are not exhausting and get us nowhere, but provide true healing and transformation of self and relationship?
A recent article (Athena A. Drew) in the International Journal of Play Therapy 2008, 17(1) revisited the practices adopted by some therapeutic modalities of legitimizing and even encouraging the physical expression of aggression toward inanimate objects (punching Bobo or hitting a pillow with a tennis racket) as release of anger etc. They have found that it actually increased aggression in children and did not provide for true sublimation and certainly not healing.
I tend to agree with their findings. I am not opposed to the physical release (As an art therapist I witness it in the pounding of clay or banging a large canvas with a large brush loaded with paint), but I never leave it on that level of release. In true sublimation the release is followed by transformation (in the case of art it is an aesthetic transformation), integration, and ultimately (but not prematurely) also insight.
Thanks for sharing your research.
Dorit